More reasons why I love my eFriends
Aug. 20th, 2007 04:15 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
psychickHeh, so this is a bit long, but I went ahead and took as much of the conversation as I could. Man, I haven't had a conversation like this since the great Communist Smurf Debate of '01. BEHOLD the great that/which/who discussion that occurred in chat today.
Jeri[distracted]: Jillian, what's your that/which question now?
Jeri[distracted]: I...SHOULD be able to explain that, with my incredibly useless degree.
Jillian: "Mr. Black neatly outlines every questionable aspect of Gina's life with an ease that might unsettle others, but merely irritates her." ?
Tsu: JERI.
* Raydar is rather bad at English. No, that's not right. She's rather bad at explaining English and her spelling is horrid. No help at all to the lot of you
Tsu: JERI, ARE YOU ALSO A BA IN ENGLISH?
Jeri[distracted]: Tsu, I have a BA AND a Masters degree in English.
Tsu: Ohhhhh.
Tsu: ...There are a lot of people BA-ing in English here.
Jeri[distracted]: Am I still unemployed? YOU BET.
* Nai[work] is gunna be a scientist.
Tsu: I wonder if we could invade and take over China if we team up.
Jillian: by the way that sentence is totally about Batman but I changed the names so as to feel less retarded.
Jeri[distracted]: And yeah, Jill, I'd say strike the second 'that/which' entirely.
Jillian: \o/ thank you, all
Jeri[distracted]: I forget what the rule is, although I /think/ it has to do with what your antecedent is
Jeri[distracted]: Whether it's a person or an object or what...
Jeri[distracted]: Wait. No, that's something else.
* Jeri[distracted] vanishes quietly
Jillian: I can't even tell you what an antecedent is. The websites were all like "if it's just ONE painting use that! if it's maybe more paintings use which!" and I was like "I DON'T HAVE ANY PAINTINGS"
Jeri[distracted]: haha um
Jeri[distracted]: My rule tends to be 'which is always my first tendency, but it is nearly always 'that' so I just go with it.'
EBB: X3
Jillian: and something something if there are commas use "which", something something if you can take out the which part and it still makes ... sense ... something something
Jeri[distracted]: Ohhhh, I see.
Jeri[distracted]: Can I have a link to this?
Jillian: http://www.sparknotes.com/writing/style/topic_173.html
Jillian: this is the paintings one :_: http://www.kentlaw.edu/academics/lrw/grinker/LwtaThat_Versus_Which.htm
Jeri[distracted]: Wow, okay.
Jeri[distracted]: Yes, I understand it re: restrictive v. nonrestrictive clauses, but that second example is TERRIBLE.
Jillian: hahaha
Jeri[distracted]: Because no one ever phrases things that way. Ever.
Jeri[distracted]: It's...what the hell, why would they make that sentence so needlessly passive O_o
Jillian: The leopard that died upon my husband's chair donated his body to fur-science.
Jeri[distracted]: yhahaha see, there you go.
Jillian: oh man I forgot the dubious joy of becoming intensely irritated with grammar book example sentences.
Jeri[distracted]: XD I used to make mine about zombies.
Jeri[distracted]: I think you got the hang of it, though, yes? If you take out 'that died' etc, it's still a complete sentence, but it's not the same leopard, if that makes any sense.
Jillian: I wish I still had mine. I could just randomly open up and do some kind of post-modern babbling crap. But I'm pretty sure I threw it away, violently.
Jeri[distracted]: Like um, if I say 'The Jillian that I know from the internet is tiny and made of beans' - that's a restrictive clause
Nai[work]: hooked on phonics?
Jeri[distracted]: Because if you take out 'that I know from the internet' it could be any Jillian.
Nai[work]: Good times.
Jillian: sort of kind of. I have problems applying it to sentences like the one I wrote
Jillian: I was like "uhh, the ease that unsettles others? Yeah, THAT ease."
Jeri[distracted]: XD
Jeri[distracted]: Well, think of it like adjectives.
Jeri[distracted]: OHHHH
Jeri[distracted]: OKAy, I was right, I KNEW there was something about people v. objects.
Jeri[distracted]: Because it would always drive me mad when I would hear or read 'My aunt which visited the Sahara stabbed my uncle with a hatpin.'
Jillian: XD
Nai[work]: somehow, if you say "The aunt of mine that visited the Sahara," but it's still mad wordy.
Jeri[distracted]: haha um :_: I'm going to shut up now because I could do this forever, since I actually /like/ this stuff.
Nai[work]: ...oops. missed something there.
Jillian: "hmm, so ... it's still the same ease, but now it irritates Batman, so... that's..."
Nai[work]: *it sounds a bit better
Nai[work]: ...actually, no. I'm lying.
Jeri[distracted]: Hahah oh yeah, it's a terrible sentence either way, Nai
Nai[work]: that still sounds like crap.
Jillian: X)
Jillian: every day is learning day on basementooc
EBB: Hee
Jeri[distracted]: Yes, sometimes about sex pollen.
Nai[work]: I've never been forced to word something that way.
Nai[work]: Thank god.
* Raydar covers her head more. It makes my head hurt, Jill.
Badge: Fuds time.
EBB: XD
Jeri[distracted]: See, that's the problem with composing example sentences/.
Jeri[distracted]: They tend to either be completely ridiculous or so banal it's painful.
Jeri[distracted]: Sometimes /both./
Jillian: hahaha, and our book was like, from the 50s
Jillian: all the NAMES were like bobby and mary anne
Jeri[distracted]: HAHAH
Nai[work]: XD
Raydar: ;__; We didn't get English books.
Jillian: offending our MODERN SENSABILITIES by holding hands
Nai[work]: Hi Terana!
tindy[working]: hi
Terana: Hiiii.
Terana: Tindy! 3
Jillian: well, see, it wasn't a textbook. We could write in ours. Which did relieve some anger.
Jeri[distracted]: So did you have really awesome sentences like 'The communists who eat the skin of little children will burn in hell'?
Jillian: mine was full of resentful commentary on what Bobby could do with the horseshoe he found
Jeri[distracted]: So then you could all talk about super present future conditional plupumfect tense?
EBB: "The zombie that ate my father, which was quite a traumatic event, is standing next to the zombie that ate Bob's dog, which was only a relief." :_:?
Jillian: ahahaaha I might have walked out knowing less grammar than I had before
Jeri[distracted]: (PS if anyone ever invents plupumfect tense please let me know.)
Jeri[distracted]: hahahahahahahahahh Kai :3
Nai[work]: XD
Jillian: Now, let's translate Kai's sentence into French.
Jeri[distracted]: See, I don't know why it doesn't have to be 'the zombie WHO ate Bob's dog,' but I unfortunately don't control the world's supply of grammar.
EBB: XD
Nai[work]: ...I think I've been in the Nexus too long.
Jillian: NONSENSE.
Nai[work]: when I said "Earth" i almost had to correct myself
Nai[work]: because "NOT EVERYONE IS FROM EARTH! it's wrong and un-PC!"
Jillian: XD
Jeri[distracted]: Hahaha
EBB: Is zombie a male or female noun in French?
Jeri[distracted]: um
Jillian: hahahah
Jeri[distracted]: que le zombeh
EBB: X3
Jeri[distracted]: RANDOMLY, if you read No Exit in French, it's apparently cooler because it's written in a tense that doesn't exist in English
Jillian: Hmm.. I could maybe do it in Chinese, except I don't know zombie, so I'll just substitute "white devil"
Snapple_works: "The zombie who" is technically correct I think.
Raydar: SOMEONE EXPLAIN TO ME THE TOLIET THING.
Nai[work]: Passe-simple?
Jeri[distracted]: Snapple - yes it is
Jeri[distracted]: You can say 'who' or 'that', either is correct
Jeri[distracted]: It just irritates me that 'that' is correct at all, because it seems like it ought to be restricted to 'who.'
Snapple_works: I think that since zombies are dead, and thus obviously objects, "that" is possibly more correct in this case.
Jeri[distracted]: It's just a personal foible of mine and should be disregarded by--oh, damn good point.
Terana: Yeah, that's the thing, I tihnk.
Snapple_works: "Who" implies a person, "that" implies a thing.
Terana: *think
Jillian: "Teacher, that dog ate my baby!" Lau shi, na ge gou chi wo de hai zi.
* Snapple_works applies her STICK OF ENGLISH MAJORITY!
Jeri[distracted]: Hmmmm
Jeri[distracted]: But!
Terana: Zombies are shambling, mindless corpse-horrors.
Jeri[distracted]: A zombie /has/ been a person in the past, so if you were speaking in past perfect or whatever...
Terana: ...not -unlike- the French, but different enough for the grammatical issue.
* Nai[work] writes down the Chinese for future use.
Jillian: USEFUL PHRASES for traveling.
Terana: "That zombie who was once Phil?"
Jeri[distracted]: Whichever the tense is where it's an event that's over and won't be repeated?
Snapple_works: Well if the zombie killed your father before it became a zombie, then "who" would be more proper, I believe.
Nai[work]: I love how we're discussing grammar with zombies.
Terana: I love you guys.
Jeri[distracted]: HAhahah I am SO GLAD we're having this conversation.
Jillian: "I went to the marketplace and sold my baby for watermelon."
Snapple_works: "Phil, who killed my father, which was a traumatic event, is also the zombie that killed my neighbor's dog, which was actually a relief."
EBB: I wrote French because damn it, I spent three years learning it and can tell someone to go fuck a chicken, what more do you want
Nai[work]: I think the first sentence worked more.
izzyryu: So the bad news is that I got dragged away for actual work after lunch. The good news is that said work is playtesting a video game. =)
* izzyryu loves her job.
Raydar: Snapple that sentence is too much.
Tsu: . . .
Snapple_works: Well the second sentence is now a lot more complex.
Tsu: [22:19] Jeri[distracted]: A zombie /has/ been a person in the past, so if you were speaking in past perfect or whatever...
Tsu: [22:19] Terana: ...not -unlike- the French, but different enough for the grammatical issue.
Jillian: coincidentally, Phil is also the imaginary friend I told Izzy to pretend to talk to.
Tsu: You cannot imagine how wonderful this is read out of context.
Nai[work]: I can't believe jobs like that exist, but then I can.
EBB: (But I didn't actually finish the GCSE. I have GCSEs in German and Spanish instead ;;)
Snapple_works: Hee
Jeri[distracted]: haha yes.
Jeri[distracted]: Again, it's a wretched sentence, although thankfully it doesn't involve hatpins.
Jeri[distracted]: Or the Sahara.
Jeri[distracted]: "While in the Sahara, my aunt, who was once a zombie, stabbed Phil and his dog with a hatpin."
Terana: She was once a zombie, but got better?
Jillian: snrk
Raydar: She's not a Zombie any more?
Jeri[distracted]: Sure!
* Tsu looks away for a moment and then comes back to Jeri going "A zombie /has/ been a person in the past..." and Terana going "Not unlike the French..." and his brain is all ".............Wait, what?".
Jeri[distracted]: Well, Tsu
Jeri[distracted]: Again, if you're reading No Exit...that makes PERFECT sense.
Jeri[distracted]: Huis Clos, or whatever.
Jeri[distracted]: Jillian, what's your that/which question now?
Jeri[distracted]: I...SHOULD be able to explain that, with my incredibly useless degree.
Jillian: "Mr. Black neatly outlines every questionable aspect of Gina's life with an ease that might unsettle others, but merely irritates her." ?
Tsu: JERI.
* Raydar is rather bad at English. No, that's not right. She's rather bad at explaining English and her spelling is horrid. No help at all to the lot of you
Tsu: JERI, ARE YOU ALSO A BA IN ENGLISH?
Jeri[distracted]: Tsu, I have a BA AND a Masters degree in English.
Tsu: Ohhhhh.
Tsu: ...There are a lot of people BA-ing in English here.
Jeri[distracted]: Am I still unemployed? YOU BET.
* Nai[work] is gunna be a scientist.
Tsu: I wonder if we could invade and take over China if we team up.
Jillian: by the way that sentence is totally about Batman but I changed the names so as to feel less retarded.
Jeri[distracted]: And yeah, Jill, I'd say strike the second 'that/which' entirely.
Jillian: \o/ thank you, all
Jeri[distracted]: I forget what the rule is, although I /think/ it has to do with what your antecedent is
Jeri[distracted]: Whether it's a person or an object or what...
Jeri[distracted]: Wait. No, that's something else.
* Jeri[distracted] vanishes quietly
Jillian: I can't even tell you what an antecedent is. The websites were all like "if it's just ONE painting use that! if it's maybe more paintings use which!" and I was like "I DON'T HAVE ANY PAINTINGS"
Jeri[distracted]: haha um
Jeri[distracted]: My rule tends to be 'which is always my first tendency, but it is nearly always 'that' so I just go with it.'
EBB: X3
Jillian: and something something if there are commas use "which", something something if you can take out the which part and it still makes ... sense ... something something
Jeri[distracted]: Ohhhh, I see.
Jeri[distracted]: Can I have a link to this?
Jillian: http://www.sparknotes.com/writing/style/topic_173.html
Jillian: this is the paintings one :_: http://www.kentlaw.edu/academics/lrw/grinker/LwtaThat_Versus_Which.htm
Jeri[distracted]: Wow, okay.
Jeri[distracted]: Yes, I understand it re: restrictive v. nonrestrictive clauses, but that second example is TERRIBLE.
Jillian: hahaha
Jeri[distracted]: Because no one ever phrases things that way. Ever.
Jeri[distracted]: It's...what the hell, why would they make that sentence so needlessly passive O_o
Jillian: The leopard that died upon my husband's chair donated his body to fur-science.
Jeri[distracted]: yhahaha see, there you go.
Jillian: oh man I forgot the dubious joy of becoming intensely irritated with grammar book example sentences.
Jeri[distracted]: XD I used to make mine about zombies.
Jeri[distracted]: I think you got the hang of it, though, yes? If you take out 'that died' etc, it's still a complete sentence, but it's not the same leopard, if that makes any sense.
Jillian: I wish I still had mine. I could just randomly open up and do some kind of post-modern babbling crap. But I'm pretty sure I threw it away, violently.
Jeri[distracted]: Like um, if I say 'The Jillian that I know from the internet is tiny and made of beans' - that's a restrictive clause
Nai[work]: hooked on phonics?
Jeri[distracted]: Because if you take out 'that I know from the internet' it could be any Jillian.
Nai[work]: Good times.
Jillian: sort of kind of. I have problems applying it to sentences like the one I wrote
Jillian: I was like "uhh, the ease that unsettles others? Yeah, THAT ease."
Jeri[distracted]: XD
Jeri[distracted]: Well, think of it like adjectives.
Jeri[distracted]: OHHHH
Jeri[distracted]: OKAy, I was right, I KNEW there was something about people v. objects.
Jeri[distracted]: Because it would always drive me mad when I would hear or read 'My aunt which visited the Sahara stabbed my uncle with a hatpin.'
Jillian: XD
Nai[work]: somehow, if you say "The aunt of mine that visited the Sahara," but it's still mad wordy.
Jeri[distracted]: haha um :_: I'm going to shut up now because I could do this forever, since I actually /like/ this stuff.
Nai[work]: ...oops. missed something there.
Jillian: "hmm, so ... it's still the same ease, but now it irritates Batman, so... that's..."
Nai[work]: *it sounds a bit better
Nai[work]: ...actually, no. I'm lying.
Jeri[distracted]: Hahah oh yeah, it's a terrible sentence either way, Nai
Nai[work]: that still sounds like crap.
Jillian: X)
Jillian: every day is learning day on basementooc
EBB: Hee
Jeri[distracted]: Yes, sometimes about sex pollen.
Nai[work]: I've never been forced to word something that way.
Nai[work]: Thank god.
* Raydar covers her head more. It makes my head hurt, Jill.
Badge: Fuds time.
EBB: XD
Jeri[distracted]: See, that's the problem with composing example sentences/.
Jeri[distracted]: They tend to either be completely ridiculous or so banal it's painful.
Jeri[distracted]: Sometimes /both./
Jillian: hahaha, and our book was like, from the 50s
Jillian: all the NAMES were like bobby and mary anne
Jeri[distracted]: HAHAH
Nai[work]: XD
Raydar: ;__; We didn't get English books.
Jillian: offending our MODERN SENSABILITIES by holding hands
Nai[work]: Hi Terana!
tindy[working]: hi
Terana: Hiiii.
Terana: Tindy! 3
Jillian: well, see, it wasn't a textbook. We could write in ours. Which did relieve some anger.
Jeri[distracted]: So did you have really awesome sentences like 'The communists who eat the skin of little children will burn in hell'?
Jillian: mine was full of resentful commentary on what Bobby could do with the horseshoe he found
Jeri[distracted]: So then you could all talk about super present future conditional plupumfect tense?
EBB: "The zombie that ate my father, which was quite a traumatic event, is standing next to the zombie that ate Bob's dog, which was only a relief." :_:?
Jillian: ahahaaha I might have walked out knowing less grammar than I had before
Jeri[distracted]: (PS if anyone ever invents plupumfect tense please let me know.)
Jeri[distracted]: hahahahahahahahahh Kai :3
Nai[work]: XD
Jillian: Now, let's translate Kai's sentence into French.
Jeri[distracted]: See, I don't know why it doesn't have to be 'the zombie WHO ate Bob's dog,' but I unfortunately don't control the world's supply of grammar.
EBB: XD
Nai[work]: ...I think I've been in the Nexus too long.
Jillian: NONSENSE.
Nai[work]: when I said "Earth" i almost had to correct myself
Nai[work]: because "NOT EVERYONE IS FROM EARTH! it's wrong and un-PC!"
Jillian: XD
Jeri[distracted]: Hahaha
EBB: Is zombie a male or female noun in French?
Jeri[distracted]: um
Jillian: hahahah
Jeri[distracted]: que le zombeh
EBB: X3
Jeri[distracted]: RANDOMLY, if you read No Exit in French, it's apparently cooler because it's written in a tense that doesn't exist in English
Jillian: Hmm.. I could maybe do it in Chinese, except I don't know zombie, so I'll just substitute "white devil"
Snapple_works: "The zombie who" is technically correct I think.
Raydar: SOMEONE EXPLAIN TO ME THE TOLIET THING.
Nai[work]: Passe-simple?
Jeri[distracted]: Snapple - yes it is
Jeri[distracted]: You can say 'who' or 'that', either is correct
Jeri[distracted]: It just irritates me that 'that' is correct at all, because it seems like it ought to be restricted to 'who.'
Snapple_works: I think that since zombies are dead, and thus obviously objects, "that" is possibly more correct in this case.
Jeri[distracted]: It's just a personal foible of mine and should be disregarded by--oh, damn good point.
Terana: Yeah, that's the thing, I tihnk.
Snapple_works: "Who" implies a person, "that" implies a thing.
Terana: *think
Jillian: "Teacher, that dog ate my baby!" Lau shi, na ge gou chi wo de hai zi.
* Snapple_works applies her STICK OF ENGLISH MAJORITY!
Jeri[distracted]: Hmmmm
Jeri[distracted]: But!
Terana: Zombies are shambling, mindless corpse-horrors.
Jeri[distracted]: A zombie /has/ been a person in the past, so if you were speaking in past perfect or whatever...
Terana: ...not -unlike- the French, but different enough for the grammatical issue.
* Nai[work] writes down the Chinese for future use.
Jillian: USEFUL PHRASES for traveling.
Terana: "That zombie who was once Phil?"
Jeri[distracted]: Whichever the tense is where it's an event that's over and won't be repeated?
Snapple_works: Well if the zombie killed your father before it became a zombie, then "who" would be more proper, I believe.
Nai[work]: I love how we're discussing grammar with zombies.
Terana: I love you guys.
Jeri[distracted]: HAhahah I am SO GLAD we're having this conversation.
Jillian: "I went to the marketplace and sold my baby for watermelon."
Snapple_works: "Phil, who killed my father, which was a traumatic event, is also the zombie that killed my neighbor's dog, which was actually a relief."
EBB: I wrote French because damn it, I spent three years learning it and can tell someone to go fuck a chicken, what more do you want
Nai[work]: I think the first sentence worked more.
izzyryu: So the bad news is that I got dragged away for actual work after lunch. The good news is that said work is playtesting a video game. =)
* izzyryu loves her job.
Raydar: Snapple that sentence is too much.
Tsu: . . .
Snapple_works: Well the second sentence is now a lot more complex.
Tsu: [22:19] Jeri[distracted]: A zombie /has/ been a person in the past, so if you were speaking in past perfect or whatever...
Tsu: [22:19] Terana: ...not -unlike- the French, but different enough for the grammatical issue.
Jillian: coincidentally, Phil is also the imaginary friend I told Izzy to pretend to talk to.
Tsu: You cannot imagine how wonderful this is read out of context.
Nai[work]: I can't believe jobs like that exist, but then I can.
EBB: (But I didn't actually finish the GCSE. I have GCSEs in German and Spanish instead ;;)
Snapple_works: Hee
Jeri[distracted]: haha yes.
Jeri[distracted]: Again, it's a wretched sentence, although thankfully it doesn't involve hatpins.
Jeri[distracted]: Or the Sahara.
Jeri[distracted]: "While in the Sahara, my aunt, who was once a zombie, stabbed Phil and his dog with a hatpin."
Terana: She was once a zombie, but got better?
Jillian: snrk
Raydar: She's not a Zombie any more?
Jeri[distracted]: Sure!
* Tsu looks away for a moment and then comes back to Jeri going "A zombie /has/ been a person in the past..." and Terana going "Not unlike the French..." and his brain is all ".............Wait, what?".
Jeri[distracted]: Well, Tsu
Jeri[distracted]: Again, if you're reading No Exit...that makes PERFECT sense.
Jeri[distracted]: Huis Clos, or whatever.
